Mainland France sentiment on St. Barts (and the French Caribbean)

I will admit I haven't looked at it too much (a lot of crazy going on out there right now) but with the contentious French general election coming up soon, does anyone have insight on how St. Barts, and the wider French Caribbean (St. Martin, Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guiana) are viewed by regular French people on the mainland? Lets be frank - these external territories suck up enormous amounts of money - billions upon billions of Euros out of the mainland (read Guadeloupe welfare rate is like 35%) and use French resources (army, police, foreign service, etc...) What do the French get in return? Bragging rights to their own slice of France in a warm island climate and a place to vacation. What else? It's not like Martinique is growing food for France (most of it is imported) or the French care that 100 young people get winter gigs waitering in a St Barts restaurant right? NOW I know that St. Barts is unique in that is is probably the only island that nets more (thanks wealthy tourists) than it takes (is anyone on welfare in SBH?) and the mainland resources (police, schooling) is minor AND St Barts doesn't suffer the same social ills plaguing its French island neighbours, however is there any conversation about setting the French West Indes free? Unlike some other Caribbean island under Euro influence (i.e. Bonaire) I don't see any active independence movement locally on SBH. St Barts people generally benefit from having a Euro passport, health care and the french products in the stores but I also see that SBH could greatly benefit from cutting free (or go wrong?).

just curious... :thinking1:

Historically speaking, countries don't often cast non-performing assets adrift. Maybe let them deteriorate, but actively (I can't think of the word but I'll go with) "disenfranchising" or stripping a group of citizenship just doesn't happen. Viva La Revolution! seems to be a prerequisite. I suppose one could engineer that if one really wanted to . . . .

I don't know if this thread is active or not based on the previous posts, but I just wanted to point out to Thomas that the issues he has raised also apply to the US and its Caribbean and Pacific territories. Clearly no reason for him to know as a Canadian (if its safe to assume that based on his location) that Puerto Rico, USVI, Marshall Islands, Guam, American Samoa and others cost the US billions but there is no serious independence movement on any of them. If it hadn't been for the access to the US markets, PR probably would have defaulted decades ago.

Knowing way too much about the situation of the US and its territories, my suspicion is that many of the same dynamics are in place between metro France and its Caribbean departments. Nothing will change any time soon.

I do think this topic can be discussed without getting into current politics of Trump, Le Pen, Fillon, Macron et. al.

Wouldn't it be Trump - Le Président, pas el presidente?

ETA: I just remembered France also has St Pierre and Miquelon off the coast of Canada. What's with that?

Let's give this topic a second chance

tim said:

Let's give this topic a second chance

Click to expand...

:up:

What would be enlightening is for someone to explain what France supplies to the island- do they offer free health care to the SBH citizens? Are the SBH citizens holders of EU passports and citizens of France? Does the island pay anything to France in terms of taxes or any sort of individual income taxes? Have all of the investments in improving the roads come from the 5% tourist tax or does France help out? How is the desalinization plant maintained financially?... etc. etc.

bkeats said:

I don't know if this thread is active or not based on the previous posts, but I just wanted to point out to Thomas that the issues he has raised also apply to the US and its Caribbean and Pacific territories. Clearly no reason for him to know as a Canadian (if its safe to assume that based on his location) that Puerto Rico, USVI, Marshall Islands, Guam, American Samoa and others cost the US billions but there is no serious independence movement on any of them. If it hadn't been for the access to the US markets, PR probably would have defaulted decades ago.

Knowing way too much about the situation of the US and its territories, my suspicion is that many of the same dynamics are in place between metro France and its Caribbean departments. Nothing will change any time soon.

I do think this topic can be discussed without getting into current politics of Trump, Le Pen, Fillon, Macron et. al.

Wouldn't it be Trump - Le Président, pas el presidente?

ETA: I just remembered France also has St Pierre and Miquelon off the coast of Canada. What's with that?

Click to expand...

YES - Canadian here, so not too familiar with all the delicate intricacies of USA/PR (and the other US territories such as Guam and American Samoa) compared to France and their far flung island COMS and DOMS. Also aware of the particular islands of St Pierre and Miquellon just off Newfoundland, Canada. Strange one that - very similar to SBH in that its small, under 10,000 residents and hard to get to. I'm an economist by training (not historian) so not thoroughly versed on the issues. Just curious how some Caribbean islands broke from their masters (i.e. Barbados, Jamaica), some have some free association (i.e. Grand Cayman) and some are very integrated with their colonizers (French West Indes).

Anyways, I have visited PR a few times, and talked to a lot of people that are conflicted - they are not very keen on being a US colony and the bureaucratic and financial burdens that places on them, however they do love their US passports that allow them to pick and move to NYC barrier and visa free (in some parts of NYC you could swear you are back in PR with the numbers that made that move).

I would assume the same situation works with France. The islands (West Indes, Guyane, New Caledonia, Polynesia, Reunion, Mayotte) like the fact they have French passports and access to French healthcare and schooling. Also they can, if they are so inclined, pick and move to France without barriers (except financial).

I guess the question is: France used to have strategic reasons for these islands (nuclear test sites, rocket launch pads, sugar plantations, etc...) which are not as relevant today. These DOMS and COMS suck up a lot of money, as mentioned - Martinique and Guadeloupe have very high unemployment rates, hence high welfare usage and lots of social issues (crime). None of that exists on SBH, thankfully, so I guess you cannot treat all the islands the same...
boy, sorry - I tried not to bring up politics for the sensitive stomachs here

stbartshopper said:

What would be enlightening is for someone to explain what France supplies to the island- do they offer free health care to the SBH citizens? Are the SBH citizens holders of EU passports and citizens of France? Does the island pay anything to France in terms of taxes or any sort of individual income taxes? Have all of the investments in improving the roads come from the 5% tourist tax or does France help out? How is the desalinization plant maintained financially?... etc. etc.

Click to expand...

Not an expert, however multiple trips and talking to locals, and a little google tells me that St. Barts locals:
- are French citizens with French (hence Euro) passports
- entitled to French healthcare and schooling - that which cannot be provided on the island, i.e. cancer care, university, is undertaken in Guadeloupe or France.

Correct me if I'm wrong - France provides SBH with the police force, customs/border services, other foreign services (overseas embassies handle visas and such) and other defence issues. Other than that - are other issues (water, waste, road repair) handled locally? I would also be interested to know.

Locals tell me that residents with under 5 years on the island do pay regular French taxes (most likely goes to France yes) and that 5 years of residency gets you ZERO income taxes (sweet) from that point on. Not sure what the local businesses (restaurants, banks, etc...) pay in tax and where it goes. My understanding is that the lodging/tourist tax goes to the local government. Low taxes and a Euro passport? Not to mention the beaches? SBH seems like a pretty sweet place to live eh?

tim said:

Let's give this topic a second chance

Click to expand...

MERCI Tim!

thomasj said:

boy, sorry - I tried not to bring up politics for the sensitive stomachs here

Click to expand...

my stomach isn't sensitive. if you want to descend into the political fray and activate the mods' lock button, be my guest . . .