andynap
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 12063
Loc: Philadelphia
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For what it's worth, this season is now predicted to be one of the worst hurricane seasons ever. I say for what it's worth because they are 50 % wrong all the time.
-------------------- Andy -
St. Barts- where no day is ever the same and one day is not enough
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Quote:
For what it's worth, this season is now predicted to be one of the worst hurricane seasons ever. I say for what it's worth because they are 50 % wrong all the time.
Given the notorious track record of pretty much all these guys (except the fellow at Penn State), I am going to predict this to be a wimpy hurricane season. Oh, it wont be as wimpy as last year's Armageddon Mother Of All Hurricane Seasons, but wimpy nonetheless.
Let's reconvene this post in November and if The Experts prove to be correct, I'll tip my hat to them. If I prove to be correct, they will come up with some other BS excuse about how global warming actually made the seas more warm and stable thereby giving us a wimpy season.
When science becomes the beyotch of politics, it ceases to be science
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Man it's getting cold!
I just checked NOAA's map, updated through April. As we all know, the average temperature in the US over the last few years has started to fall BELOW historic averages. April was positively frigid by historic standards. Only the Rockies were slightly warmer than historic norms in April. May data not in yet, obviously.
Damn that Global Warming!
Of course, I have been admonished before in this site that the US is not the rest of the world and that the rest of the world is incinerating even as we build our snowmen.
But I remain a skeptic. Or, is that A Denier?
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KevinS
Reged: 07/23/03
Posts: 3396
Loc: Boston
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Here's one for you IV:
Study: Killer hurricanes thrived in cooler seas
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Thanks Kevin.
If the earth was the size of a basketball, the sun would be 1.5 miles away. The surface temperature of the sun is 10,000 degrees fahrenheit and the sun sends energy through space with a temperature of less than 300 degrees below fahrenheit.
This energy hits our planet which is mostly molten lava with a very, very thin rim of hardened crust we call "surface". Again, assuming the earth is the size of a basketball, our atmosphere is as thick as two credit cards stacked on top of other - in other words, less than one eighth of an inch thick. And this thin rim (less than one eighth of an inch of "air" covering a basketball) is exposed to sunlight, 300 degree below zero space and a very thin crust of cooled surface surrounding molten lava. Even so, this thin wisp of air maintains a temperature within a few degrees for EONS on end. Damn!
So when I see people who acknowledge that THOUSANDS of ice ages have occured since the earth cooled and that the periodicity of these is ten thousand to a hundred thousand years and then I examine the numbers given and watch supposedly sensible people run around like chickens with their heads cut off talking about "global warming" I am reminded of a Far Side cartoon with Grog and Og looking at the stars and saying "Urg".
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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there is a natural warming period occuring
AND
man is spewing gases into the atmosphere which is also warming us up
those occurences in and by themselves probably would create a minor fluctuation in temperatures
those occurences in conjunction with one another creates the mess we currently have now...and with no history of those two occurences ever happening at the same time before...that we know of.....we are currently in uncharted waters...with consequences we can no longer predict on either side with any deree of accuracy...all bets are off
an idiot can figure this out......but until we are all on the same page...and as long as we are polarized......there wont be a solution
but hey.....keep arguing
-------------------- karma is a beautiful thing at times
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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So, your argument is thus:
1. You acknowledge there have been thousands of ice ages
2. You acknowledge we are coming out of an ice age
3. You acknowledge that the earth has been both colder and warmer than it is now
4. You acknowledge that at least twice (the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs 64m years ago and the supervolcano eruption in sumatra 74k years ago) the earth has had FAR more "pollutants" thrown in the sky than any other known time, both times plunging into "nuclear winters".
5. You acknowledge that "the steady rise in temperature over the last 30 years" has NOT been steady
6. You acknowledge that "the steady rise in temperature" follows on the heals on an "equally alarming" steady fall in temperature (see the issue of Time magazine from 1974 that I have linked numerous times to this site)
Even with all that, you look at this situation and say "this time it's different".
KNOWING what we know about how the earth heats and cools periodically and has done so since the great condensation (600 million years ago) it is at minimum presumptuous if not outright preposterous to attribute "an alarming one degree rise" in temperature over a hundred years to our activity, particularly since much of that rise came before our activity should have caused it.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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I've said what I ve said....do with it what you want
-------------------- karma is a beautiful thing at times
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Sorry about the bank holiday. Maybe it will be warmer in June or July.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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you wont hear me complaining one bit..Ill be in shorts and a T shirt while on skis this weekend...life is good
-------------------- karma is a beautiful thing at times
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Quote:
you wont hear me complaining one bit..Ill be in shorts and a T shirt while on skis this weekend...life is good
I'll drive the Expedition around a little extra today to make sure you are comfy. The gas is expensive, but what they heck? You're worth it.
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JackR
Reged: 10/10/02
Posts: 976
Loc: North Shore
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Speaking as one confined to our lovely back yard. The weather has been great. There are lovely smells of iris and other blossoms waifing thru. On a serious not though The actual cause of global warming is...............THE SUN. And random kinetic energy JAck
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Quote:
The actual cause of global warming is...............THE SUN. And random kinetic energy JAck
Shhhhh Jack. Don't let the secret out.
I think that most serious non-political types have known that for a while. And while I used to rant about the hysteria of Global Warming, I now have changed my tune.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I am still what is known as a Denier. But I have seen the projections of the TRILLIONS of dollars that are going to be made patching a hole in the dike that doesn't exist. And, allegedly, most of those dollars will be made in the US.
Green Is Green. And in a parade of Emporers Wearing No Clothes, the trick is to convince everyone you are a great seemstress.
What useless solution to a nonproblem can I invent to make my share of the booty this boondoggle will bring? That's the ticket!
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JackR
Reged: 10/10/02
Posts: 976
Loc: North Shore
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What useless solution to a nonproblem can I invent to make my share of the booty this boondoggle will bring? That's the ticket!
Can you say ethanol? Prices of corn products are already rising due to this boondoggle Jack
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JoshA
Reged: 08/28/05
Posts: 2224
Loc: Virginia
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Time to reconsider a denier stance?
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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Josh..in the past three days our prez has suddenly done a 180 on Dafur..aids in Africa and now global warming...I wonder whats coming today...stem cell???..pro choice???
gee......I wonder why the sudden change of heart?????.....LMAO
politicians are indeed a funny bunch to watch operate
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JoshA
Reged: 08/28/05
Posts: 2224
Loc: Virginia
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Never trust a true politician, Miker, but you knew that. Party label doesn't matter. They're in a spin zone immune from reason but not immune from electoral politics. But there are others that truly are immune from reason in a spin zone constructed of their own cherished beliefs.
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WishIWereThere
Reged: 11/04/04
Posts: 267
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Quote:
in the past three days our prez has suddenly done a 180 on Dafur..aids in Africa and now global warming...I wonder whats coming today...stem cell???..pro choice???
From the WSJ 6/2 - just about sums up my feelings.
Too Bad By PEGGY NOONAN June 2, 2007; Page P14
What political conservatives and on-the-ground Republicans must understand at this point is that they are not breaking with the White House on immigration. They are not resisting, fighting and thereby setting down a historical marker -- "At this point the break became final." That's not what's happening. What conservatives and Republicans must recognize is that the White House has broken with them. What President Bush is doing, and has been doing for some time, is sundering a great political coalition. This is sad, and it holds implications not only for one political party but for the American future.
The White House doesn't need its traditional supporters anymore, because its problems are way beyond being solved by the base. And the people in the administration don't even much like the base. Desperate straits have left them liberated, and they are acting out their disdain. Leading Democrats often think their base is slightly mad but at least their heart is in the right place. This White House thinks its base is stupid and that its heart is in the wrong place. [Photo] President Bush has torn asunder the conservative coalition.
For almost three years, arguably longer, conservative Bush supporters have felt like sufferers of battered wife syndrome. You don't like endless gushing spending, the kind that assumes a high and unstoppable affluence will always exist, and the tax receipts will always flow in? Too bad! You don't like expanding governmental authority and power? Too bad. You think the war was wrong or is wrong? Too bad.
But on immigration it has changed from "Too bad" to "You're bad."
The president has taken to suggesting that opponents of his immigration bill are unpatriotic -- they "don't want to do what's right for America." His ally Sen. Lindsey Graham has said, "We're gonna tell the bigots to shut up." On Fox last weekend he vowed to "push back." Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff suggested opponents would prefer illegal immigrants be killed; Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said those who oppose the bill want "mass deportation." Former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson said those who oppose the bill are "anti-immigrant" and suggested they suffer from "rage" and "national chauvinism."
Why would they speak so insultingly, with such hostility, of opponents who are concerned citizens? And often, though not exclusively, concerned conservatives? It is odd, but it is of a piece with, or a variation on, the "Too bad" governing style. And it is one that has, day by day for at least the past three years, been tearing apart the conservative movement.
I suspect the White House and its allies have turned to name calling because they're defensive, and they're defensive because they know they have produced a big and indecipherable mess of a bill -- one that is literally bigger than the Bible, though as someone noted last week, at least we actually had a few years to read the Bible. The White House and its supporters seem to be marshalling not facts but only sentiments, and self-aggrandizing ones at that. They make a call to emotions -- this is, always and on every issue, the administration's default position -- but not, I think, to seriously influence the debate.
They are trying to lay down markers for history. Having lost the support of most of the country, they are looking to another horizon. The story they would like written in the future is this: Faced with the gathering forces of ethnocentric darkness, a hardy and heroic crew stood firm and held high a candle in the wind. It will make a good chapter. Would that it were true!
If they'd really wanted to help, as opposed to braying about their own wonderfulness, they would have created not one big bill but a series of smaller bills, each of which would do one big clear thing, the first being to close the border. Once that was done -- actually and believably done -- the country could relax in the knowledge that the situation was finally not day by day getting worse. They could feel some confidence. And in that confidence real progress could begin.
The beginning of my own sense of separation from the Bush administration came in January 2005, when the president declared that it is now the policy of the United States to eradicate tyranny in the world, and that the survival of American liberty is dependent on the liberty of every other nation. This was at once so utopian and so aggressive that it shocked me. For others the beginning of distance might have been Katrina and the incompetence it revealed, or the depth of the mishandling and misjudgments of Iraq.
What I came in time to believe is that the great shortcoming of this White House, the great thing it is missing, is simple wisdom. Just wisdom -- a sense that they did not invent history, that this moment is not all there is, that man has lived a long time and there are things that are true of him, that maturity is not the same thing as cowardice, that personal loyalty is not a good enough reason to put anyone in charge of anything, that the way it works in politics is a friend becomes a loyalist becomes a hack, and actually at this point in history we don't need hacks.
One of the things I have come to think the past few years is that the Bushes, father and son, though different in many ways, are great wasters of political inheritance. They throw it away as if they'd earned it and could do with it what they liked. Bush senior inherited a vibrant country and a party at peace with itself. He won the leadership of a party that had finally, at great cost, by 1980, fought itself through to unity and come together on shared principles. Mr. Bush won in 1988 by saying he would govern as Reagan had. Yet he did not understand he'd been elected to Reagan's third term. He thought he'd been elected because they liked him. And so he raised taxes, sundered a hard-won coalition, and found himself shocked to lose the presidency, and for eight long and consequential years. He had many virtues, but he wasted his inheritance.
Bush the younger came forward, presented himself as a conservative, garnered all the frustrated hopes of his party, turned them into victory, and not nine months later was handed a historical trauma that left his country rallied around him, lifting him, and his party bonded to him. He was disciplined and often daring, but in time he sundered the party that rallied to him, and broke his coalition into pieces. He threw away his inheritance. I do not understand such squandering.
Now conservatives and Republicans are going to have to win back their party. They are going to have to break from those who have already broken from them. This will require courage, serious thinking and an ability to do what psychologists used to call letting go. This will be painful, but it's time. It's more than time.
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JoshA
Reged: 08/28/05
Posts: 2224
Loc: Virginia
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Bush (shrub) has run into the ground anything he ever touched. This now includes our great country. He's neither a liberal nor a conservative. He simply has no principles whatsoever. Born into a powerful political family, he has squandered its legacy. Arrogance and incompetence makes for a disastrous combination. I'm glad to see Republicans waking up to this.
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Quote:
Quote:
For what it's worth, this season is now predicted to be one of the worst hurricane seasons ever. I say for what it's worth because they are 50 % wrong all the time.
Given the notorious track record of pretty much all these guys (except the fellow at Penn State), I am going to predict this to be a wimpy hurricane season. Oh, it wont be as wimpy as last year's Armageddon Mother Of All Hurricane Seasons, but wimpy nonetheless.
Let's reconvene this post in November and if The Experts prove to be correct, I'll tip my hat to them. If I prove to be correct, they will come up with some other BS excuse about how global warming actually made the seas more warm and stable thereby giving us a wimpy season.
When science becomes the beyotch of politics, it ceases to be science
Yes, it is still early in the season, but it looks as though Honest Adult Predictions (That would be MOI) Have Trumped PC BS (That would be The Experts) Again.
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NYCFred
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 6083
Loc: NYC
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Which reminds me, Miker... gonna hit Tuckermans for a little spring skiing?
-------------------- I go for the Q-tips.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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Quote:
Which reminds me, Miker...
gonna hit Tuckermans for a little spring skiing?
what do you think???...... I probably will...the hike up is a fairly difficult one with a full back pack and skis and having not done it in 20 years and no longer being in my 30's.common sense would dictate not to do it.......but common sense is overrated so I'll give it a whirl...I think I'm still in good enough physical shape to do it...the ride down is certainly worth it...some of the steepest terrain I have ever skied, other then Corbetts Colouir at Jackson Hole or Palavicini at A Basin......when you stick your skis over the edege of Tucks you can't even see where you are going until half the ski is over the edge...and then you had BETTER nail that first turn otherwise its a long tumble down....thats how steep...sweeeeeeeeeeeet!..I've skied some avalanche chutes off piste that were a little steeper but I am forbidden from doing that stuff anymore since Lena was born..I made a deal
and its way too early for the roosters to crow about the current hurricane season, but I do hope for the sake of all who live in the Caribbean, it is a benign one...water temps here in the Cape are pretty high for July.....we'll see how it all plays out soon enough
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andynap
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 12063
Loc: Philadelphia
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QUOTE:" water temps here in the Cape are pretty high for July"
You mean like 50 instead of 40??
-------------------- Andy -
St. Barts- where no day is ever the same and one day is not enough
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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no I mean like a 75 degree surface temperature...with a thermocline that is also deeper then usual....bottom temps were in the high 40's..we had a back door Canadian cold front push through which pushed surface temps back into the mid 60's for a few days but they have been rebounding since...Lena swam all week in it wiithout complaining of being cold
-------------------- karma is a beautiful thing at times
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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on July 12th the Climate Prediction Center of NOAA issued a diagnostic report on ElNino/La Nina conditions in the Pacific. The conditions are currently described as "neutral" and are predicted to remain "neutral" for two months and "possibly longer".....These are the same conditions which prevailed in 06....given all that it is somewhat safe to assume a repeat of last years activity.....good for all who call any type of coastal environment their home and livlihood
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Well, in about three days I get to put my Body where my Mouth is. I will be in THE HEART OF THE CARIBBEAN with two atlantic "disturbances" aimed at me.
developing...
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infi
Reged: 09/01/06
Posts: 617
Loc: California
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For IV from CNN
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The number of tropical storms developing annually in the Atlantic Ocean more than doubled over the past century, with the increase taking place in two jumps, researchers say.
A satellite image of Tropical Storm Dalila off Mexico's Pacific coast.
The increases coincided with rising sea surface temperature, largely the byproduct of human-induced climate warming, researchers Greg J. Holland and Peter J. Webster concluded.
Their findings were being published online Sunday by Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London.
An official at the National Hurricane Center called the research "sloppy science" and said technological improvements in observing storms accounted for the increase.
From 1905 to 1930, the Atlantic-Gulf Coast area averaged six tropical cyclones per year, with four of those storms growing into become hurricanes.
The annual average jumped to 10 tropical storms and five hurricanes from 1931 to 1994. From 1995 to 2005, the average was 15 tropical storms and eight hurricanes annually.
Even in 2006, widely reported as a mild year, there were 10 tropical storms. Don't Miss
* Hurricane season opens * Action on climate change: Is it too late?
"We are currently in an upward swing in frequency of named storms and hurricanes that has not stabilized," said Holland, director of mesoscale and microscale meteorology at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado.
"I really do not know how much further, if any, that it will go, but my sense is that we shall see a stabilization in frequencies for a while, followed by potentially another upward swing if global warming continues unabated," Holland said.
It is normal for chaotic systems such as weather and climate to move in sharp steps rather than gradual trends, he said.
"What did surprise me when we first found it in 2005 was that the increases had developed for so long without us noticing it," he said in an interview via e-mail.
Holland said about half the U.S. population and "a large slice" of business are "directly vulnerable" to hurricanes.
"Our urban and industrial planning and building codes are based on past history," he said. If the future is different, "then we run the very real risk of these being found inadequate, as was so graphically displayed by (Hurricane) Katrina in New Orleans."
Hurricanes derive their energy from warm ocean water. North Atlantic surface temperature increased about 1.3 degrees Fahrenheit during the 100-year period studied. Other researchers have calculated that at least two-thirds of that warming can be attributed to human and industrial activities.
Some experts have sought to blame changes in the sun. But a recent study by British and Swiss experts concluded that "over the past 20 years, all the trends in the sun that could have had an influence on the Earth's climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures."
As the sea surface temperatures warm, they cause changes in atmospheric wind fields and circulations, and these changes are responsible for the changes in storm frequency, Holland said.
Chris Landsea, science and operations officer at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Hurricane Center, said the study is inconsistent in its use of data. Planet in Peril Anderson Cooper, Jeff Corwin & Dr. Sanjay Gupta explore the Earth's environmental issues in a CNN worldwide investigation. Coming in October, on CNN see full schedule »
The work, he said, is "sloppy science that neglects the fact that better monitoring by satellites allows us to observe storms and hurricanes that were simply missed earlier. The doubling in the number of storms and hurricanes in 100 years that they found in their paper is just an artifact of technology, not climate change."
But Kerry Emanuel, a hurricane expert at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the study was significant. "It refutes recent suggestions that the upward trend in Atlantic hurricane activity is an artifact of changing measurement systems," said Emanuel, who was not part of the research team.
Improvements in observation began with aircraft flights into storms in 1944 and satellite observations in 1970. The transitions in hurricane activity that were noted in the paper occurred around 1930 and 1995.
"We are of the strong and considered opinion that data errors alone cannot explain the sharp, high-amplitude transitions between the climatic regimes, each with an increase of around 50 percent in cyclone and hurricane numbers," wrote Webster, of Georgia Institute of Technology, and Holland.
-------------------- World news,analysis and insight at The Daily Clarity www.mydailyclarity.com
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Infi:
Thanks for the article but I have already seen it refuted.
Today with satellites, we can see a windstorm off the coast of africa before nearby mariners even know anything is going on. But satellites are a relatively new thing.
When the good people of Galveston got wiped out a century ago, no one really knew what kind of storm was coming. Ditto the Labor Day hurricane of 1935 that killed all the WWI vetererns working on Mr Flagler's railroad in the keys. Even in the days of my youth, The Elders would regale us with stories of trying to ride out storms only to find they were worse than anyone expected.
Long story short here - and do I REALLY have to spell it out? - is that Back In The Day there were a lot of hurricanes and tropical storms that were never picked up because we did not have satellite tracking or a well developed storm chaser system like we do now.
Alas, this is the kind of stuff that passes for "science" these days in the religion of global warming. Since we couldn't measure or even discover a large percentage of the hurricance a century ago, we decide to just look at the ones we can discover now and say the number has doubled. And then we call this "science". Balderdash.
If someone tried to submit that type of work to a REAL peer-reviewed journal that was anything more than a partisan pamplet, they would be howled out of their profession.
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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The sad thing is that even one of the fellows in the article cited points out that the "upward ticks" occured right at the time that better monitoring occured and, we are told, before Massive Global Warming Kicked in.
The hallmark of a good scientist - in any field - is skepticism. This paper not only gives The Skeptic much to doubt, it leaves the door so wide open that only The Zealot could even seriously contemplate the hypothesis.
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Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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Using the same logic as the scientists in the paper, I could make the following arguements:
1. Before the time of Semmelweis, very few people died of bacterial infections
2. Prior to about thirty years ago, everyone who got lymphoma only got one of three types - with all the types we currently diagnose being "new"
3. Before telecommunications, nobody ever died of famine in Africa, floods in Bangladesh or monsoons in Asia
4. And as we all know, prior to thirty or forty years ago, tsunamis never occured when there was an underwater discturbance. In those days, they just had "tidal waves" - caused by the moon?
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JoshA
Reged: 08/28/05
Posts: 2224
Loc: Virginia
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Quote:
The hallmark of a good scientist - in any field - is skepticism.
This is true, IV, but incomplete. You must be skeptical of your own biases as well. And, importantly, you must keep an open mind to the ideas of others. Then comes the part where you spend enough time to acquire expertise, work hard, read the latest literature, contribute your own ideas, have them scrutinized and tested by peers.
Science is not politics, but the Bushies have certainly politicized the global warming debate. It's galling to see political cronies editing the opinions of real scientists.
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