Island Visitor
Reged: 12/19/02
Posts: 10396
Loc: Retraité
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I had told the friends we were taking on our most recent trip of the great fun of bouncing around as you skimmed the top of Le Tormente. Yet, having overnighted in SXM (which is a long story - then again, isn't it usually a long story when any of us overnight in SXM?) we left for SBH in the early morning.
Given that there were no thermals that early, we circled past Le Tormente, over the east side of the island and swooped into land over the baie. Way, WAY cool. I had never done that before. The view of the east part of the island, and then Baie St Jean as it got closer and closer was really pretty special.
There is something magical about bouncing in over Le Tormente. But landing backwards is kind of cool too, for a change...
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tim
Moderator
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 5954
Loc: Vélo, Virginia, Vitet
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I've only done it once in about seventy five trips, so odds are definitely against landing backwards. I agree it's a neat experience, especially in the context of emotions one usually experiences in anticipation of and during the drop over Le Tormente.
Another interesting experience is a landing in the prevailing cross wind and then the aircraft carrier style takeoff of a fully loaded twin otter at Saba. Winair once decided that I and a few other passengers, who innocently thought we were flying from SBH to SXM, needed to experience the Saba airport on our way. After what was a way too exciting cross wind landing on this not long enough runway, we picked up a full load of holiday bound medical students and their considerable baggage, taxied to the start of the runway, and the pilot revved the engines until I thought both plane and passengers would all rattle apart. Our Saba passengers just grinned knowingly. The pilot released the brake, off we went, and we almost achieved airspeed just before running out of runway. Then it became evident what the Saba folks knew that we didn't appreciate. The runway is on a cliff, and although we dropped down a little as we went off the end, the trusty old twin otter smoothly climbed up into the sky, perhaps somewhat lightened as the hearts of us newbies had flown away on their own when we "ran out" of runway.
Edited by tim (12/04/04 10:54 AM)
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Steve_in_STL
Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 283
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We have seen planes landing over the water before but my initial reaction is that the pilot is not qualified to land over La Tormente. Recognizing that a little knowledge is dangerous, it's also my understanding that it's generally safer to both takeoff and land into, not with, the wind, which is usually coming off the water. It is not by coicidence that planes takeing off on St. Thomas and SXM usually take off toward the hills/mountains--and if you have ever taken off in St. Thomas you know that is a pretty good size mountain at the end of the runway. Maybe it is less of an issue with smaller planes but on a hot day in St. Barts, I don't think so. I would be interested in any pilots take on this.
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Mike
Reged: 12/18/02
Posts: 116
Loc: Michigan
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Steve,
We always try to take off into the wind, especially on a short runway or if obstacle clearance is a factor. The other factor of an over the water landing at SB is that there is not an option for a go around if something goes sideways during the landing attempt.
Other factors that come into play are temperature, wind direction and speed, gross weight and alititude above sea level(obviously not a problem in the French West Indies)
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As pilots, my wife and I always try to get the front seats in the Otter so that we can kid around with the pilots and see the view from the front. Last year our return flight was on a 10 seat, including pilots, aircraft that was sigle pilot operation. I told the pilot that I was a pilot as well and asked if I could fly right seat on the trip to Anguilla and on to St Martin. I was suprised and delighted when he said "Hop in". It was a great flight.
65 days to go!
Mike
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NYCFred
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 6083
Loc: NYC
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Did it once, oddly enough on the way back from Saba also...popped over for a day of diving with SeaSaba, 4pm return flite to SBH cancelled, so Winair puts 3 of us on the 5PM back to SXM...I'm in a bathing suit, lugging scuba gear, and an evening alone in St Martin (with my wife in SBH) is doable, but not the preferred solution..no hotel, etc....land in St Martin, one of the counter clerks comes out onto the tarmac and makes the universal 'SHHH' gesture, finger to lips...scoots us over into another aircraft, where we're the last flite into SBH that day...backwards..
(I guess, to be formal about it, we shoulda cleared immigration in SXM...which woulda made the SBH landing NG...gotta love the Caribbean....)
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I go for the Q-tips.
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jdr
Reged: 04/25/03
Posts: 323
Loc: Boston
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We spent 8 days on St. Jean beach and saw one landing over the water. Shocked everyone because the plane comes in almost silent. I actually had my video camera running, and you here this "sput sput" in the background then it whizzes by. But I wasn't fast enough.
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St. Barths Flickr Group!
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KevinS
Reged: 07/23/03
Posts: 3397
Loc: Boston
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I've never landed backwards, but I have been diverted through Saba. After my last involuntary night on SXM I fly to SBH by way of Saba. Once I knew where we were going I knew exactly what to expect - there is a sheer dropoff at both ends of the runway. The runway length at SAB is variously listed as 1312 feet and 1748 feet, while the SBH runway is much longer, at around 2100 feet. (The SBH runway doesn't win many contests in the length department. I haven't been there, but I'm told that the airport in Statia is shorter than SBH too.)
The landing at SAB is as Tim described it. We unloaded a dive group and all of their gear but picked up nobody. The takeoff routine was also as Tim descibed it - both pilots stand on the brakes, they firewall the throttles, the plane starts to shake apart, they do a countdown and release the brakes, and off you go. In our case, lightly loaded, instead od running out of runway and dropping, the Twin Otter was airborne about halfway down the runway.
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JEK
Moderator
Reged: 01/20/04
Posts: 10661
Loc: Northern Virginia
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Last November we were at the Eden Rock for 10 days of le grand pluie. Due to the weather patterns the planes landed mostly over the baie.
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Carnaval 2009: Mardi 24 Février 2009!!!!
JEK
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dybocain
Reged: 12/03/03
Posts: 47
Loc: Hinsdale, Illinois
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During the week of November 8th, as observed from Camaruche, the reverse landing protocol was almost continuously in effect. Last year, during the first week of December I noticed the same, perhaps it has something to to with my presence on the island......
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Eric
Reged: 10/07/02
Posts: 679
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In only 6 trips to SBH, we've landed "backwards" twice. The 1st time I was a little surprised & disappointed, but a very nervous flyer on our flight was quite pleased and a little irritated with my disappointment.
Last January, we landed "backwards" also & at this point it really doesn't matter to me which way we land. I'm just glad to get back to SBH.
Eric
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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any landing that isnt belly up is a good one...have done it once in my umteen landings.....it was pretty cool
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karma is a beautiful thing at times
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Brian
Reged: 10/22/02
Posts: 594
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Landing on runway 28 (ie, "backwards") doesn't mean the pilot is not qualified for the regular approach (runway 10). Rather, it means that either the wind is favoring that direction, or that there is sufficiently light wind to permit landing either direction and the pilot requested that landing (and the tower approved).
You need to be specially qualified to land at SBH, regardless of the runway. At least, that's what I found a few years back when I looked into getting qualified for the airport.
Brian
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tim
Moderator
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 5954
Loc: Vélo, Virginia, Vitet
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I know pilots have to be specially qualified to land on SBH, and I've always wondered about the pilot who several years ago tried to land a private turboprop plane here. I don't think anyone was hurt, but the plane got messed up a bit and sat around the airport in a damaged state for a good while. I'd be curious to find out if he had permission to land and if so, why would airport officials allow a plane to come in that couldn't handle the short runway.
BTW, I'm told by a pilot friend that private planes aren't even allowed to land at Saba, and I can sure see why.
Edited by tim (12/06/04 03:27 AM)
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KevinS
Reged: 07/23/03
Posts: 3397
Loc: Boston
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I believe that the Saba airport is "officially" closed, due to its unique nature and the difficulty of operating there, but operates on an exception basis for Winair only. There is an X painted at both ends of the runway, which indicates that the runway is closed.
As to turboprops in SBH, the biggest one that I remember seeing was towards the end of this past November. There was a Pilatus PC-12 (N999EP) parked there for a few days. I wondered just how difficult it was to land it. It must have gotten out safely, because it was gone a few days later.
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Steve_in_STL
Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 283
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Kevin, several years ago I saw a Pilatus land so there may be one that frequents St. Barts. The runway has been widened with the new improvements, I think, but its wingspan took up most of the runway at the time.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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Kevin..all I know is I was a lot more "adrenalized" during and after the Saba landing then I ever was for the worse St Barts landing
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karma is a beautiful thing at times
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tim
Moderator
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 5954
Loc: Vélo, Virginia, Vitet
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MikeR,
"Adrenalized" - what a great word. You've expanded my vocabulary today.
My pilot pal tells me it was in fact a Pilatus that landed in St. B and went beyond the runway damaging the props but without injuring anyone. Don't know how they got it repaired and got it out of here, but I do know it sat at the airport for a good while causing many safely arriving passengers to give thanks a second time.
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The best moderation is the least moderation.
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Skateboard Phil
Reged: 11/04/02
Posts: 763
Loc: Chevy Chase, Md.
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I am always disappointed when we come in over the beach. Part of the excitement of arriving in SBH is the landing over La Tourmente. We have come in over the beach for our last 3 landings and its not quite the same. We'll be chartering for our trip in March and I will be specifically requesting a landing the "right way", unless conditions indicate that it would not be safe. With the price of Winair tix and charters continually heading Northward, I wanna get my moneys worth!
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Skate La Tourmente
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BillK
Reged: 10/02/02
Posts: 1376
Loc: Aurora (Toronto) Canada
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Landing over the hill is actually the safest way to go. Your only problem is coming down short - which would be somewhat undesirable from either direction. If your long you can always go around. However coming over the baie is a do or die situation once you pass Eden Rock. You can't accelerate and climb fast enough to miss the mountains (hills) on all three sides. The airport is also not a "controlled" airport and it's the pilot's decision as to which way he lands and when. You will tend to see the "baie" landings late afternoon when the wind drops making the decision 6 of one and half dozen of the other. Normally the prevailing wind necessitates a mountain landing.
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BillK
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Brian
Reged: 10/22/02
Posts: 594
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You're right -- there's no tower. Apparently, that slipped my mind on Sunday! I hereby amend my earlier post to read "Rather, it means that either the wind is favoring that direction, or that there is sufficiently light wind to permit landing either direction and the pilot elected to land that way."
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stbartslover
Reged: 02/09/03
Posts: 863
Loc: Ann Arbor. Flamands Blue
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There certainly is a SBH tower!! What do you think is that glass structure on top of the terminal building? SBH is a controlled airport with "real" certified air traffic controllers too!
To illustrate: As a child my father (an AF pilot) and I watched the awesome sight of an aircraft carrier departing Pearl Harbor. I asked why there were no planes on deck? He said that certainly there were some stored below decks but the rest would fly out to meet the ship. He explained to a this 10 year old that the Captian always turns INTO THE WIND to launch or retrive aircraft!!! It's the same at SBH. The Pilot always 1)follows the traffic pattern as mandated by the tower--2) lands and takes off INTO THE WIND, period---ESPECIALLY on a short field as the one on our favorite Island. There is no backwards...
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BillK
Reged: 10/02/02
Posts: 1376
Loc: Aurora (Toronto) Canada
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A tower does not mean its "controlled" Julianna is controlled you must request and be permitted to enter the pattern and land SBH is not "controlled" check some of andynaps pics also sit on the beach in a no wind situation and watch planes approach from opposite directions at the same time. They will give wind direction and confirm traffic that may have entered the area but it's pilot to pilot communication that "controls" the airport... and I don't recall seeing any aircraft carriers in St Jean Baie but who knows where dubya will strike next.
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BillK
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andynap
Reged: 10/24/02
Posts: 12063
Loc: Philadelphia
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QUOTE: " who knows where dubya will strike next "
Great minds think alike.
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Andy -
St. Barts- where no day is ever the same and one day is not enough
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Dennis
Reged: 04/05/04
Posts: 3117
Loc: Chicago
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Oh no...freedom on the march, again?
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danno
Reged: 09/20/03
Posts: 18
Loc: Canada
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ya, and if they don't want "freedom", we'll just force it on them .... after all we know what is best for the hordes ..........
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NYCFred
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 6083
Loc: NYC
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<<<but who knows where dubya will strike next. >>>
Hey, NOT a bad idea....all we gotta do is describe SBH as a breeding ground for terrorists...and we get to smack the FRENCH around a bit, too, in the process....
At least we wouldn't have to worry about the dollar/euro valuation issues....
(and yes, kids, I AM a hardcore right winger....)
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I go for the Q-tips.
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Skateboard Phil
Reged: 11/04/02
Posts: 763
Loc: Chevy Chase, Md.
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I know I'm being an ugly American here, but with the $ plummeting against the Euro, that is an invasion I could support. Heck, I might volunteer to become a part of the "occupation force".
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Skate La Tourmente
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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Quote:
<<<but who knows where dubya will strike next. >>>
Hey, NOT a bad idea....all we gotta do is describe SBH as a breeding ground for terrorists...and we get to smack the FRENCH around a bit, too, in the process....
At least we wouldn't have to worry about the dollar/euro valuation issues....
(and yes, kids, I AM a hardcore right winger....)
really????.....LOL
thats as far as I can comment...I'm on double secret probation for my not so nice political comments the other day which got deservedly deleted....
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karma is a beautiful thing at times
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georgedp
Reged: 06/22/04
Posts: 2772
Loc: Beautiful hunterdon county new...
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Come now, no need for war and violence to ''annex'' St. Barths. The French already swapped with the Swedes a couple of times so under intensive negotiations we can achieve our purpose. We give the French one of our Virgin Islands in exchange for SBH. Or, if you prefer to do it through invasion, invade some other island, annex it and then trade it to the French for SBH.
take care
georgedp
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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yeah thats a good idea..lets give the French one of our ruined americanized Virgin Islands, that I had the displeasure of living in for two long years, and then we can do a number on SBH directly rather then the indirect way we are doing it now.....I can see it now...Pizza Hut..Taco Bell...KFC..the very best of our mutt culture....LOL
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karma is a beautiful thing at times
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NYCFred
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 6083
Loc: NYC
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<<<We give the French one of our Virgin Islands in exchange for SBH. >>>
Does it HAVE to be an island?
(Massachussetts or California both spring to mind....sorry, NY ain't on the table...)
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I go for the Q-tips.
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georgedp
Reged: 06/22/04
Posts: 2772
Loc: Beautiful hunterdon county new...
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Quote:
<<<We give the French one of our Virgin Islands in exchange for SBH. >>>
Does it HAVE to be an island?
(Massachussetts or California both spring to mind....sorry, NY ain't on the table...)
New Jersey is also NOT on the table. I thought an island to island trade would be more fair although perhaps we could give them Guam or some other remote outpost that's not in the Caribbean.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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why not Jersey??...we get rid of that God forsaken place and the air and water quality in the surrounding areas will immediately exponentially improve...LOL ..just give me warning so I can get my mother and daughter out and also make sure my ex wife stays.......how can you not love those wonderful odors from exit 11 to exit 15 on the Turnpike??..the French would love that!
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karma is a beautiful thing at times
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georgedp
Reged: 06/22/04
Posts: 2772
Loc: Beautiful hunterdon county new...
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Quote:
why not Jersey??...we get rid of that God forsaken place and the air and water quality in the surrounding areas will immediately exponentially improve...LOL ..just give me warning so I can get my mother and daughter out and also make sure my ex wife stays.......how can you not love those wonderful odors from exit 11 to exit 15 on the Turnpike??..the French would love that!
Oh Mike R
You obviously haven't been to our little piece of paradise in Hunterdon County New Jersey where the dear and the antelope play (quite literally - although no antelopes - just plenty of white tails and other critters and the occasional black bear). Pristine, crystal clear water from our well (cause God knows you can't drink most NJ city waters without glowing in the dark). Say, why don't we trade SBH for New Hampshire? LOL
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NYCFred
Reged: 01/06/04
Posts: 6083
Loc: NYC
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<<<how can you not love those wonderful odors from exit 11 to exit 15 on the Turnpike??..>>>
That, my friend, is the glorious smell of shareholder's equity at work....
(Ex Jersey guy)
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I go for the Q-tips.
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Mike R
Reged: 05/26/03
Posts: 15621
Loc: Stinson Lake - New Hampshire
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